Insights from building a VC firm in public with Initialized Capital founder Garry Tan

The below is a full (unedited), machine-generated transcript of a Youtube session / podcasting episode I recorded with Garry Tan in Q2 2021. You can view the video/listen to the podcast on YoutubeApple PodcastStitcher or wherever you get your podcasts.

Erasmus Elsner 0:07 
So welcome everybody to another session of Sand Hill Road. Today I’m really humbled to have one of the great venture capitalists with me a Forbes Midas List 100 member, Garry Tan. And I’m so humbled to have you on the show. Garry, are you ready to take it from the top?

Garry Tan 0:22 
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. 

Erasmus Elsner 0:25 
So I want to split this episode into three pieces. First off, I want to talk about Garry Tan as a content creator, because I think you’re really pioneering a number of platforms, starting from Twitter, moving over to YouTube, and now crushing it on clubhouse, then Garry, as a founder, having started two companies, and then last but not least, Garry as a venture capitalist. Let’s start off with Garry as a content creator. And I think I’m speaking for everyone out there in the tech ecosystem of really thanking you for being so open and you know, building it in the public. You’ve been so helpful to so many people with your videos with your tweets, people tend to forget how it was in the mid 2000s. Even venture capital used to be such an opaque industry where knowledge and information was shared in closed boardrooms, you’re one of those who have pioneered opening up this closed box. I really liked this quote from Marc Andreessen, who once said he used Andreessen Horowitz as being a media company with a venture firm attached to it totally, I think you are taking this to the next level by really being this content creator, rock star with a venture firm attached to it. And your tweet storm cadence really reminds me of the early Marc Andreessen when he was still actively tweeting, how do you keep up this cadence? I’m just so impressed by it.

Garry Tan 1:48 
Thanks, too kind man. I basically started using Twitter right about when it I mean close to when it started, I feel like it had been around for maybe a year or so. And then, I mean, this is all ancient history. But I started off as a founder in 2008, Y Combinator summer 2008. batch, the one in Cambridge. And I kind of think Twitter was one of many different social networks. It just happened to be the largest in Silicon Valley. And it was one of the first ones we supported for autopost, from our blog platform to Twitter, needs this sort of web 2.0 phase of the web. And I was running, I was trying to run my own social network that was based basically being built on the back of Twitter and Facebook, but there’s sort of a dozen other platforms as well, like MySpace was still around, we supported MySpace, Bebo, like, there’s like so many names that don’t exist anymore. Jaiku, I don’t know. I mean, you know, microblogging was new. Tumblr at the time was our biggest competitor in a lot of ways because they supported multiple types of media. And so I started a Twitter basically, because I was a user. And then my friends were on there, we actually grew on the back of Twitter for many years, like 10. Next year, on year, what I learned about content creation was, you know, I was always a blogger, you know, I used danga, way back in the day, I think it was biz stones, you know, company, before he went over to blogger in Twitter. And so I’ve been using these social platforms for a long time. I never really had an audience on any of those. But I was just a fan. Like, I love to find things on the internet, I thought were interesting, before even Facebook, we were making semi anonymous blog posts under a pseudonym, and you’re having our close, like 10 or 20, friends sort of comment and read each other’s stuff in a daily email digest. So I feel like I’ve been using social products for a really long time. And then the difference was, because I had created one of the platforms, it’s one of the funniest things, how the creators of these platforms just get elevated. And I didn’t expect any of that it actually came out of one of my growth hacks. One of the reasons why posterous was able to grow, if someone posted something, whatever it was, and they left it up on a public blog, I made a little dashboard for myself in the software so that every day as a part of my like, ritual of trying to build the community, I’d go through and read and comment on all the public blog posts of the day. And so I you know, there are people today that I’m like, you know, sort of Twitter friends with, but I met them just because they randomly saw the TechCrunch article about posterous posted something like a photo of a flower or their dog. And I would comment every single day, I’d leave like maybe a couple 100 comments on people’s blog saying like, thank, you know, welcome to posterous I would, for sure, leave a note about their content because I wanted them know, like, This isn’t like, you know, auto ad like, you know, there’s a real human being on the other end. And through the process of that, I would actually just see interesting things that just tickled me. I was like, Oh, that’s fun. That’s interesting. So then I would take that, and I’d like, you know, obviously, it was reshare culture. So I was like, I would link to their thing, actually, like, that’s when I worked on the bookmarklet. It allowed you to like clip things from other websites and link it on your own posterous blog. That’s actually how I grew my Twitter very initially, like, I just had a very big queue of things that I would see. And anything that I thought was interesting, I would post and then people started finding that interesting. And so I guess I’ve been doing that for, you know, even since 2000, like 13 years going on 13 years at this point. So I don’t know, it was very incremental. And there’s not really a plan other than whatever I think is interesting. I hope other people find, find it interesting. And even today, I started like, Why do these people care about my thing, but you know, I’m happy that they do honestly, on Twitter.

Erasmus Elsner 6:01 
It’s obviously it is a cascade of having one of the large accounts like you have probably one of the largest accounts in the VC twittersphere. Bill Gurley, for example, he tweets I think, once once a week or so sometimes, he doesn’t tweet for for a couple of weeks. But your cadence is just like always, boom, boom, boom.

Garry Tan 6:20 
I just enjoy it and big believer that every business now is actually a meme. I mean, human consciousness is basically being rewired right now. And I guess in that, in that sense, like, it’s water to me, like it’s not foreign to me to anytime there’s an interesting thing that I think other people should pay attention to. I just tweeted, that’s helpful for my business too. Because, you know, sprinkled in with like, the broadly interesting things that I’ve tweet, I also get to tweet, like the things I invest in, but those I actually have skin in the game on, where it’s like, I believe in it so much that I’m going to, you know, put millions of dollars into that. And you should pay attention to it. Because I’m going to be very careful about what I invest in, because I want the world to be a better place. And if I invest poorly, we waste money, and the world gets worse.

Erasmus Elsner 7:11 
And how do you personally handle the filter your personal filter, in terms of what you say things can be misunderstood, misread? Have there been moments where you’ve been overthinking a tweet and ended up deleting it before?

Garry Tan 7:24 
I delete tweets all the time? It happens all the time. I don’t know. Everything is so political these days, I do think twice. I mean, you have to. It’s like that’s the high wire act of having a large following. That’s very public. Maybe the filter that I actually run is basically, you know, before I put it out there, do I believe that the person who’s reading it will get any value out of it? And then if the answer is no, then I just don’t put it out there. I’ll text it to a friend. And it’s like, I’ll just be like, hey, I need to vent to you. But blah, blah, blah, right? I’ve been in

Erasmus Elsner 8:01 
that situation many times where I actually, even if I tweeted, it ended up tweeting and deleting it after a couple of minutes up because I thought, Okay, this, this might be misunderstood. But let’s move over to your great journey. As a YouTuber, which is so impressive, you actually started putting out YouTube videos, right? about the time when I started, the flagship of your content is these really deep pieces highly curated, which I’ve also started out with, it’s very time intensive. It’s very personal. I’ve gotten more into the interview format. Now, as you can tell, how do you think about these different formats,

Garry Tan 8:35 
I guess my best advice for people who are thinking about doing it is just do it, try not to get too hung up on quality, because the quality comes from iteration as opposed to like more and more time spent. At least that’s my lived experience. I mean, it’s different for everyone. If you talk to a lot of creators, they always point back to their old stuff, that original stuff. And it’s very embarrassing for them. Because it’s a process. And there’s this great interview with Ira Glass of This American Life. And he talks about this is like, the entire reason why you decide to create is because you have taste and you have this idea in your head, that you can create this thing that you know you, you want to manifest some sort of future reality. And then when you sit down like your hands are not dexterous enough to actually like create the craft, right? You have to go through the dip. And you know, there’s a long period of time. It’s not a short time, it’s a long time where the things that you want to create and the things that you actually create are, there’s a wide Gulf, it just like doesn’t match what you want. And then the difference between the people who make it and those who don’t are the, you know, the people who make it, they just keep doing it, and they’re like, I have to trust the process. And that was definitely true for me. It’s like, I look at my early stuff and it’s you know, the sound is bad and You know, it’s the conversations are sometimes meandering, or I don’t know, that still happens. It is about embracing that we’re all a work in progress that’s really big. And then in terms of content, my true north star was and, you know, I say that I’m standing on the shoulders of giants in a lot of ways, because, you know, every business is a meme. And then, you know, vlogging is a more high fidelity, harder version of blogging, right. And people have built amazing funds, whether it’s mark at eight Andreessen Horowitz, obviously, or, you know, Fred Wilson, or Paul Graham. Yeah, I mean, that was the big thing for me, Paul Graham wrote his essays about you were meant to have a job. And then he got me to quit my job and go start a company. And that’s really just all I want to sort of pay forward. And so the funniest thing is like, a lot of these ideas haven’t really been discussed in video form. And so now I realise there is actually you know, there is mass interest in this. And then if you go on YouTube, if you go on Instagram, and you like, dig a little bit into the mass media of business culture, it’s not real. I don’t really want to like put anyone on blast, but it’s very easy to find the get rich quick people get rich quick, quick people are on clubhouse right now because clubhouse is the most dominant graph that’s growing very, very quickly. And I think it’s going to be durable. So the grifters go to where all the money’s gonna be. And they’re definitely on clubhouse now. But they’re on YouTube all over. And, you know, they’re not actually trying to teach you anything. It’s like sort of entertainment, and then a grift come and pay for my paid course pay $1,000 pay $10,000. And, you know, come to my seminar. And it’s like, what are they teaching you like, they’re teaching you 1/100 of the wisdom that you could get from navall, raava Khan’s YouTube and Spotify and like, all the different mediums that he just gives away, and he like, comes out, and of all is like, I will never charge for this. And like, that’s the deal with my content, too. It’s like, I will never charge for this, like, this is not about me making money, like I’m investing my own money. And you know, I am investing into the content because I want I just I desperately believe that the most important thing that could be happening in society is people learning to build businesses and to create new games for each other. Really, I mean, this is the infinite game, like the get rich, quick idea is come in, do your dirty, get out, like retire, like go to go to the beach someplace, be rich, buy your Rolex, whatever it is, right? And it’s like, guys, like, that’s not what life is about, like life is about, you know, here’s this system here, the you know, here are the levers. And the coolest thing that I find very invigorating is like, you know, my Twitter audience is obviously, at this point, like pretty broad, but mostly like startup founders. And I don’t know, increasingly, I feel like it’s a lot of insiders. And then YouTube, the audience is like all outsiders, they’re like 16 year olds, 18 year olds, they’re not even in the United States, like they’re in Eastern Europe, they’re in India, they’re in Nigeria. And there’s not a business culture. And yet, like they have found in the algorithm, the algorithm has showed them this thing that hopefully I can bring them over. And it’s like, I hope these are the people who start billion dollar companies. And so yeah, I don’t know, that’s sort of like my guiding light. And then those three different things sort of come out of that. It really is what what would be beneficial, and what would be valuable? And what can I pass on? That I learned the hard way? And then when I have guests, it’s what can they pass on? That’s like the number one question I really like to have is what do you want to say to the 20 year old version of yourself? And, you know, the answers are sort of all over the place. And they’re always interesting for me.

Erasmus Elsner 14:06 
I learned such a tremendous amount from the early Y Combinator podcast when it was still called Startup Radio with Aaron Harris. Yeah, I learned so many things. These were the early days of the podcasts, like an iceberg of knowledge. That’s all in audio. And then people put out their way before everyone had a podcast. And then obviously there’s this kid from England does Harry stabbings guy who’s I don’t know he’s 19. He’s 20. He starts this, this thing out of law school in London. He just writes these people and talks to them over the phone and he becomes this guy who shares knowledge to the next level.

Garry Tan 14:45 
I definitely learned from Harry I loved how he had great editing. You know, I generally think that most content is a little bit too low effort. And then for me, the first whole year, I did every single I did all of it like I did. The editing even down to like, removing pauses between like you’re removing likes removing arms and removing pauses. I learned that from Harry. So I think that there’s real leverage. And it’s worth doing. Because I respect my audience so much. It’s like, yeah, you know, my time is valuable. On the other hand, like, if the content is viewed 10,000 times, then that’s like 10,000 times leverage on two seconds that I spend trying to make the experience better for someone else.

Erasmus Elsner 15:32 
Yeah, I love that you bring that up removing the arms, because I’m, I’m obviously not a native speaker. So every time I do these edits, afterwards, I have to remove a lot of my, of my audio and my, my amps, I spent sometimes hours just doing doing post production, but I think that’s worth it. You know? Yeah.

Garry Tan 15:50 
So pro tip, now you can go on Upwork, and find really good people on Upwork. So I did that for a while. And I’m glad I did, because it taught me a lot about the process. Now I don’t do it at all. Generally, I’ll do a final edit, pass, because and the titles because I want to make sure I do want Final Cut. And now I’m investing much more into a team approach. And I hope that’s going to be a lot more scalable.

Erasmus Elsner 16:15 
That’s great. This actually brings me to the next point that I wanted to raise, how do you now that you’ve sort of gone through this iteration process, both in terms of gear, and I think both of us, we learned that audio is so much more important, the quality of audio, the filters, having these small tweaks, I think you’re using a DSLR, I stopped using it because the video files which has become way too large, what are your key learnings for other content creators out there?

Garry Tan 16:41 
Let’s see. I mean audio first, everyone, like focus on the camera, but honestly, the lighting is probably more important. And then all of that, honestly, is still just presentation. It’s funny, because a lot of people really compliment me on my like Av. And then I worry because, you know, in design, there’s visual design, and then there’s the interaction design. And Steve Jobs always points out, like design is how it works, not how it looks. And so I do think Quality Matters, because it’s just signalling, you know, I’m signalling that I am investing my time and effort. And it’s a form of respect. It’s kind of like, when you know, when you’re gonna go to your girlfriend’s parents house to ask for her hand in marriage? Do you wear like garbage? Or do you wear a nice suit, I think of it like as respect to the viewer that way, it’s like, I’m going to be very thoughtful about your time with me. And that’s sort of how it is necessary to build basically a creative brand, right? I mean, I think Harry is a great example of that, like, he doesn’t waste people’s time, you always get something out of every episode. And he’s thoughtful. And that’s what a brand really is, you know, it only takes like two or three videos of garbage to get, like a perfectly good subscriber to be like, I don’t know what happened to that person, you know. So it is about quality. And, you know, creation is just like doing a startup, right? Like startups are the same way. Like, I try products all the time I try and, you know, sign up for a dozen different things every week. And if it doesn’t work, I just never try it again. It’s like you had one shot, you lost it, like have some bug fixing, you know, like, have some quality, respect your user, right? And so creators, I think that that’s the number one thing that people I don’t know why they don’t do it more. I think that’s the taste part, right? Like not everyone is cut out to do this, simply because not everyone cares enough. But not everyone is a good party planner. And not everyone is a good producer, not everyone is actually good at this stuff. And that’s okay, right?

Erasmus Elsner 18:55 
We share something in common that we both have this back catalogue in our head of having consumed a lot of this content that we can then mix into our videos. It’s a slippery slope, because I really felt that it was hindering my cadence. I was over producing some some early videos. Sometimes. Harry quotes someone and he could in theory, go back and you know, get the original recording from another podcast. And if you wanted to, you can make every single episode of his into a one hour long conversations and then obviously wouldn’t be the 20 minute VC, which it isn’t isn’t anymore anyhow. But how do you avoid this temptation of overproduction?

Garry Tan 19:36 
Let’s see, price six months and I basically committed to a weekly schedule at least, and then is very hard to do because when I overproduced it, or I overthought it then I wouldn’t hit my schedule. And it was tough because it was double whammy, like it took a lot of time. And then at the same time, I was getting like 100 views or like 500 views But I guess the two things that I did to get through it is one, I stopped thinking about it in terms of like, Oh, it’s only 500 views so and so is getting 10,000 views. Why is that your and I started thinking about it as just a multiplier on my time. And it’s like, if 500 people watched it to the end, then I just got 500 times my time in, you know, that’s valuable in and of itself, like, how often Am I in a zoom with one or two people, and I’m sort of saying this one thing that might be very helpful to them. Whereas, you know, on YouTube, I can say at once, and then it’s sort of on the internet forever. And, you know, it might get like 10 or 100,000 views over the course of the next 10 years.

Erasmus Elsner 20:42 
That’s a topic I’ve been thinking about so much, I call it the scalable human relationship, part of this content. And you know, I had sitz branchy, from get lab on who’s really taking it to the next level, throughout the organisation, even way before the pandemic, they keep recording so many conversations within their company with, you know, prospective clients, and then they have this Handbook, this 3000 pages handbook for every step in the organisation. So that it’s really like this open distributed organisation to the setup of the Yeah, so powerful. Yeah, we’ve talked a lot about you as a content creator, let’s move on to you as a founder, originally out of college, you worked for Microsoft, and then you were one of the first employees at palantir. Worked on the design of their logo, as I recently learned, and then you started posterous. Eventually, you got acquired by Twitter by the mothership? How is this process from start to finish? How did it also inform you as a venture capitalist nowadays? If you think back on what you would have liked to have had in the ecosystem?

Garry Tan 21:47 
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, where to start? Honestly, it’s been amazing to see how Y Combinator changed over time, even by summer Oh, eight, though, you know, yc, started in 2005. By 2008. Demo Day did have you know, Fred Wilson, from USP calm, I mean, they started having, Sequoia would always come. So they started having the top VCs come relatively quickly, like sort of within two or three years. Whereas like that first demo day, I hear had very, very few people. You know, I think Jessica famously published a blog post, Jessica Livingston, one of the founders of yc, published a blog post about how she initially cold emailed Ron Conway, and he wouldn’t come initially, which was, I don’t know, it’s just cool to see, you know, today everyone associates that Y Combinator with like, being the Harvard of entrepreneurship, but it’s really fractal like everything starts out as something small that people don’t necessarily think will work. And it’s through the sheer force of will of the founders that they just keep working on it. posterous was, honestly an experiment. I mean, I love blogging, and me and my co founder loved photography. It’s funny today, because we definitely discount companies that we see that we think are probably features instead of complete companies. And I often feel guilty about that, because my startup almost certainly was one of those startups, you know, we looked at post by email, as a feature of WordPress and flicker, but none of them had ever made a simple one single email address post at posterous. And mainly because of, there’s this idea at the time that you know, emails are very spoof double like, you can literally Tell that to the port and just enter like SMTP commands and pretend to be anyone you want. But in practice, what we found was, at the technical level, there was enough that we could do to make it work in the majority of cases, again, like 8020, that in practice, it became actually usable. And I think it’s interesting, I would sort of trace it to something that actually affects a lot of startups, even today, people really go into their work line of work, and they think of their disciplines as silos, my co founder, and I think, you know, I really credit my co founder such an Agra wall for this, like, he was an engineer. And that, but he had not, he had like plenty of pm in him, that he could basically transcend like, whatever the role was, and combine like, well, this is the engineering constraint. But then this is what the user needs. And then is there a path and like, if you were a pure engineer, you would say, Well, technically, like, 10% of the time, it’s totally insecure, like we can’t do it. And then typically, a non technical pm would look at that. And they’d say, oh, like the engineer says, It’s not possible, right? And then if your engineer and a pm in one person, you can say, okay, 80% of the time, it can be secure. And then this 20% of the time, we’re just gonna send an another email back to the person saying, hey, Is this you, and then it can be secure, and then we can ship it. So I don’t know, even for our startup, it was really about being multidisciplinary. And then thinking about constraints. And then is there a way Yeah, we started off as a feature that turned into a blog platform and a network, we had a shot, the thing that pains me to think about is we had a real shot to be a billion dollar company, we had all the press, we had top VCs, we had top angels, a lot of the most famous people using it, you know, all the influencers that you would want, we didn’t make it. And so I’ve tried to like sort of go through the various things we did wrong. I think the most important one to really sort of underscore though is, I wasn’t ready to be founder or CEO at that point. Because, and I didn’t even know, you know, I was definitely ready to be a great engineer, and a great designer and a great, I see. But going into that experience, I didn’t have the skill set, to be a great manager, and a great leader, I think I’m still trying to work through that. And then I’m trying to work through it in public, because if my journey can be helpful to others, you know, that’s the number one thing I want to do, you know, there’s really two things to start up land one is like catching lightning in a bottle, which is product market fit. That’s very, very rare on its own, but we’ve had good success of it, like being able to find founders, you know, we have I think 10 companies worth a billion dollars or more. And I do think that we have, if we find like 15 or 20 companies a year, I mean, I think half of them, at least end up getting some form of product market fit. And then the ones that really break out are the ones that hold on to that product market fit over the long haul. And those are the ones that can be unicorns, or deca, corns, or, you know, even worth $100 billion someday, I’m and the way that happens is not that first part, the first part is like product design, engineering, you know, building a great product. And the second part, which is as hard and I’m still trying to figure it out, it’s like how do you build an organisation really a cult? I mean, a religion, like a cult is too strong, like a cult is negative, right? How do you build a benevolent cult that like, makes money makes value for the world? Like that’s actually what a functioning startup is? And for that, it’s like, how do we actually pack in capital pack in super smart people, and then, like, keep churning out things that only help your customers. So that’s what I’m very obsessed with. And I don’t have it all figured out. I feel sort of blessed basically, to just see product market fit, and then sit alongside those founders and help them. It’s like, you know, I love doing the soft advisor thing, where it’s like, this is just my experience. And let me introduce you to someone else who was like in your shoes right now. And it’s like, I’m not here to tell you how to do it. Because advice is honestly like n equals one experience over extrapolated I do want the founders to make up their own minds and have as much information as possible. And then they like it’s up to them. And then you know, I try and take that approach to both investing and, and the videos that I make and content because it’s like, all I know is I know nothing. 

Erasmus Elsner 28:27 
So let’s talk about Garry as a VC. It all started when you read joined yc back in 2011. As a designer in residence after having gone through yc as a founder in the 2008 summer batch. And you soon became a full investment partner there and got to work with many outstanding founders and companies. At one point, you decided to set up your own venture firm initialised capital, which has been a huge success story so far. So fast forward in 2019. You’ve been knighted by the Forbes Midas list, which every year recognises the world’s top 100 venture capitalists. And recently, you announced the successful closing of fund five, which is a $230 million fund, which will continue to invest in early stage companies at the seed and series A.

Garry Tan 29:11 
This is funny because I never worked. I never planned to be working as a VC. What happened was, I was burnt out I actually left my startup in 2010 before it was sold to Twitter, Paul, Jessica and harj tagger. At the time, were the three main full time partners at Y Combinator. And they said why don’t you just come and help out like, you know, I think they, they gave me a part time job, and I just hung out at on Pioneer way. And I just loved it. It was really, really fun. I was just helping people with design. But increasingly just from the number of people I ended up talking to, I found that people were asking me about sort of the full stack of things. How do you raise money, how does it all work, and then after basically a batch they asked me to come on as venture partner, and help interview and basically I became part of that, you know, first set of outside partners that weren’t the founders at Y Combinator. And I realised that was better in a lot of ways than any sort of formalised associate programme. Because even as an associate, if you’re cold emailing hundreds of companies per year, like you don’t always get a response. And then you don’t actually get like the the level of depth you get in terms of a relationship as a yc partner. So you know, reading something like 1500, or 2000 applications, doing hundreds of interviews and doing accepts and rejects. And then once we accept them, doing office hours, week after week after week with founders was like jumping in like the deepest part of the pool. And I realised like I got to see zero to one, in a super concentrated fashion, in a very rarefied set of founders in a way that like had never really been done in venture before. So I really, again, like everything about my career is like, I am super thankful for the people who came before me and gave me my shot. Because I do always feel like I’m just standing on the shoulders of giants, like people who have paved the way for me. And for me, all I want to do is keep paying it forward, like how do we take the lessons of yc, which is benevolence help first, you know, find the smartest people and put them in a room together. And then magic happens, I feel very blessed that that is, you know, essentially my job day to day, it’s crazy that this, this exists as a job. 

Erasmus Elsner 31:40 
And maybe to wrap up this session, I recently tweeted, there are two great outcomes to the startup journey. It’s either quick and lasting success or fast failure, and you brought home this this message of time boxing.

Garry Tan 31:53 
The amazing thing about time boxing, so those of you who are interested in it, check out my video on time boxing, but in a nutshell, it’s like, if you have a hypothesis for the market, go and pursue it. But like, be very process oriented around, I’m gonna give myself three weeks or 10 weeks or 12 weeks. And at the end of it, I’m going to shit. And then I see what happens. And then I want to prove or disprove my hypothesis in that timeframe. And every founder, no matter how big or small, can do this for every project. And around yc, I would just tell them, you know, years later, we would do office hours with people who even maybe raise series A or B, and they’re trying to they have to pivot. And I would just reframe them around this. It’s like, remember, when you were at yc, you had 12 weeks and you had Demo Day, like what can you do in 12 weeks? Well, you did all of these things, and you went from zero to one in that timeframe. So you can keep doing that over and over again. You know, don’t forget, you know what it’s like to run fast and in order to do it. Constraints will give you freedom. Love it.

Erasmus Elsner 32:56 
So Garry, thank you so much for being with us here today. Big fan. Keep in touch.

Garry Tan 33:01 
Thank you man. Thanks for having me on. Big fan of your channel.